My 500 build - Thing2
- Thread starter Gamphy
- Start date
So first thing today I had to address a front brake issue on Thing1, I had fitted an 11mm FMC, but the cylinder started passing when I went to pick up the parts for Thing2 s engine, so took off the FMC and replaced with a stock FMC I had previously rebuilt with new seals. All good and a nice firm brake lever.
So back to Thing2s engine, I stripped the LH side out, popped the rotor off ( its so easy with the right tools!), removed the head, cylinder and piston, really pleased with the condition of everything. So the hard work starts next week, when I've got to drop the case out of the subframe and then split the case. A few progress pics attached
So back to Thing2s engine, I stripped the LH side out, popped the rotor off ( its so easy with the right tools!), removed the head, cylinder and piston, really pleased with the condition of everything. So the hard work starts next week, when I've got to drop the case out of the subframe and then split the case. A few progress pics attached
Attachments
TheElevatorMan
Well travelled
- Location
- San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Perfect time to upgrade for the sixth gear!!!!
Only if you can find the breakdown drawings and a parts list for all the necessary components and then find a dealer willing to sell the parts!!!
Should add, parts for the Scram 440 are in short supply and my local dealers are currently not willing to order parts for a bike they've never sold, asked for my Scram 440 VIN said RE insisted its a necessity before any parts are ordered...WTF!
Currently talking to the state distributors to see if I can circumvent the dealers
Currently talking to the state distributors to see if I can circumvent the dealers
Located the Distributor, hidden in a back street, in a rather shabby part of town, just a single door behind a steel shutter, with hardly any signage. Got talking to the owner and got inside the place, what immediately struck me was the huge pile of boxes full of 'made like a gun' engine oil, he explained all the local dealer service centres must only use RE oil and along with spare parts they go through him and he deals direct with RE and he holds a lot of stock. They dont normally deal with the general public, dont trade online, just direct with the dealers and the whole host of local mechanics. Being Johnny Foreigner who was making an attempt to speak the lingo and acting dumb to the rules, I explained my project bikes, he has made an exception and allowed me to directly order through him, no dealer nonsense. I was able to give him my list of part numbers I think I need and he has ordered, he did say these parts are all currently special order and will take some time, probably 3 or 4 weeks, fingers crossed
Took the case out of the subframe and split the case. I've attached a picture to show the difference between balance shaft gears.
Took the bearings out of the LH crank case.
When compared to new bearings:
Crank shaft main bearing has slight wear and a little play but nothing bad.
Balance shaft bearing, fine, no sign of wear or play.
Sprocket Gear shaft bearing, a bit rough, but not much play
Clutch gear shaft bearing, same a bit rough
Gear selector shaft bearing, slight wear and a little play but nothing bad
So my findings so far is ( on the left hand side) crank and balance shaft bearings were good, but gearbox bearings suspect even though there was no problem with the gearbox.
So need to strip the RH case next.
Took the bearings out of the LH crank case.
When compared to new bearings:
Crank shaft main bearing has slight wear and a little play but nothing bad.
Balance shaft bearing, fine, no sign of wear or play.
Sprocket Gear shaft bearing, a bit rough, but not much play
Clutch gear shaft bearing, same a bit rough
Gear selector shaft bearing, slight wear and a little play but nothing bad
So my findings so far is ( on the left hand side) crank and balance shaft bearings were good, but gearbox bearings suspect even though there was no problem with the gearbox.
So need to strip the RH case next.
Attachments
Roy Gavin
Well travelled
- Location
- Adelaide Australia
Bearings in my Rotax were " Sealed Clean "transmission bearings, a high quality bearing designed to keep the swarf out and give the box around the same life as the motor.
Balance shaft had them too.
But not a huge range of sizes---!
Balance shaft had them too.
But not a huge range of sizes---!
- Location
- Western Australia
Im working on the ( unproven 
) assumption that they use better quality bearings on the Export models.
) assumption that they use better quality bearings on the Export models.Yeah, course they do 
All bearings are SKF India, apart from the Gear selector shaft bearing which is FAG India, to be fair that engine is 7 years old, had done about 35,000 hard, hot and dusty, kms and was very very unloved, so some bearing wear was to be expected.
I am replacing the bearings with the same ( RE stock ).
I read somewhere that somebody believed RE shoved whatever approximately right bearings they could find during the Covid supply issue years, I think the main reason for this assumption was based around the fact one of the bearings is shielded on one side only, nah, its actually designed to be that way! I guess even now Covid conspiracy theories continue to prosper.
FWIW I think its got a robust bottom end ( might consider renaming it to Kim Kardashian) I also think its a decent top end, as long as it remains well serviced ( definitely thinking KK might just be an appropriate name)
Yet to dismantle the RH case, but from what I've seen so far I suspect the quiet clack clack I was hearing from the bottom end was actually the oil pump just starting to exceed its wear limits, caused by crap oil, infrequent oil changes and running on low oil, making things get a bit too hot. Will know more tomorrow, unless I go out for a ride before the rains start, which is tempting!
All bearings are SKF India, apart from the Gear selector shaft bearing which is FAG India, to be fair that engine is 7 years old, had done about 35,000 hard, hot and dusty, kms and was very very unloved, so some bearing wear was to be expected.
I am replacing the bearings with the same ( RE stock ).
I read somewhere that somebody believed RE shoved whatever approximately right bearings they could find during the Covid supply issue years, I think the main reason for this assumption was based around the fact one of the bearings is shielded on one side only, nah, its actually designed to be that way! I guess even now Covid conspiracy theories continue to prosper.
FWIW I think its got a robust bottom end ( might consider renaming it to Kim Kardashian
) I also think its a decent top end, as long as it remains well serviced ( definitely thinking KK might just be an appropriate name)Yet to dismantle the RH case, but from what I've seen so far I suspect the quiet clack clack I was hearing from the bottom end was actually the oil pump just starting to exceed its wear limits, caused by crap oil, infrequent oil changes and running on low oil, making things get a bit too hot. Will know more tomorrow, unless I go out for a ride before the rains start, which is tempting!
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I got my LH and RH mixed up!
So today I've stripped the crank, balance shaft and gears out of the RH case, just one bearing I can't get out because its in a blind hole ( meaning I can't knock it out from the back) and my bearing puller is a pile of do do, so ordered another which will hopefully arrive this weekend.
Forgot to order the main drive shaft seal and in checking the gear positioning do dad, its pretty worn ( on the BS4 I think it doesnt just provide gear positioning, it also modulates revs depending on neutral or riding) dunno if that has any effect on my ECU, but not taking a chance so I will replace.
Couple of pics, I've left the gear assemblies wrapped up so I know exactly how its assembled. Also attached a list of bearings and seal part # for those thinking about a full strip and rebuild.
So today I've stripped the crank, balance shaft and gears out of the RH case, just one bearing I can't get out because its in a blind hole ( meaning I can't knock it out from the back) and my bearing puller is a pile of do do, so ordered another which will hopefully arrive this weekend
.Forgot to order the main drive shaft seal and in checking the gear positioning do dad, its pretty worn ( on the BS4 I think it doesnt just provide gear positioning, it also modulates revs depending on neutral or riding) dunno if that has any effect on my ECU, but not taking a chance so I will replace.
Couple of pics, I've left the gear assemblies wrapped up so I know exactly how its assembled. Also attached a list of bearings and seal part # for those thinking about a full strip and rebuild.
Attachments
Small bearing puller for the blind ended and shielded bearing ( one of two bearing with shields on one side by design) arrived, bearing out. All new engine bearings fitted, new crank and balance shaft fitted ( I didnt need to replace either, but having stripped it down completely, what the hell, may as well go for a total refurbishment).
Just waiting on the new 6 speed gearbox trains to arrive.
Have discovered that you can modify the existing 5 speed set up to use the existing drive shaft, which then means you can refit the stock 411 clutch and RH case, so now thinking do I go for 440 clutch and new case cover, stick with 411 clutch set up ( which , with the HMC HD springs has been more than adequate for both the 500 and the 477), or do I go the whole hog and modify the 440 clutch set up to fit a 650 slipper clutch, part of me is thinking the existing clutch has low miles, is good and I like to use the engine braking, so maybe get the slipper clutch and case set up, but wait until the clutch dies, but then I would have to do a full strip down to change gear drive shaft....hmm, might wait and see what the actual difference between a 411 and a 440 clutch actually is.. not sure I like the idea if a full strip just to change a clutch. Hoping the difference is not much and I can maybe get away with a 440 clutch with stronger springs from my 500 clutch. What do you think?
Just waiting on the new 6 speed gearbox trains to arrive.
Have discovered that you can modify the existing 5 speed set up to use the existing drive shaft, which then means you can refit the stock 411 clutch and RH case, so now thinking do I go for 440 clutch and new case cover, stick with 411 clutch set up ( which , with the HMC HD springs has been more than adequate for both the 500 and the 477), or do I go the whole hog and modify the 440 clutch set up to fit a 650 slipper clutch, part of me is thinking the existing clutch has low miles, is good and I like to use the engine braking, so maybe get the slipper clutch and case set up, but wait until the clutch dies, but then I would have to do a full strip down to change gear drive shaft....hmm, might wait and see what the actual difference between a 411 and a 440 clutch actually is.. not sure I like the idea if a full strip just to change a clutch. Hoping the difference is not much and I can maybe get away with a 440 clutch with stronger springs from my 500 clutch. What do you think?
Attachments
Most of the 6 speed bits have arrived, I missed; the top hat spacer , the clutch retaining nut and splined lock washer ( which are all different than the 411), so they are all on order.
Fitted a 650GT slip and assist clutch into a 440 basket ready for later installation.
Gear train assembly test fitted, all works.
Couple of pics attached.
Fitted a 650GT slip and assist clutch into a 440 basket ready for later installation.
Gear train assembly test fitted, all works.
Couple of pics attached.
Attachments
- Location
- Western Australia
The slipper clutch may become available for the 411, I imagine there is a market considering its a popular model and some of us can't stop modifying them 
Be interesting to see if one gets developed, as it stands there are two issues trying to fit a 440 slipper clutch to a 411, the spline in the basket is different to the 411 and the slipper requires a pull action to disengage, so a 440 engine case and clutch pin mechanism would be required to provide the pull.
It may be a simple case of re-machining the 440 spline to allow it to fit over the 411 shaft, making a boss to pack the 440 basket out to match the same distance as the 411 basket and then using a 440 engine case and clutch pin.
The reason I have gone down the 650 clutch route is because of the 6 speed drive shaft which required a 440 slipper clutch basket anyway, after that its an easy option to fit a 650 clutch assembly, which is both slip and assist.
If I wasn't going 6 speed I would have stuck with the standard clutch with HMC stronger springs, which works good on both my 477 and 500 himalayans.
It may be a simple case of re-machining the 440 spline to allow it to fit over the 411 shaft, making a boss to pack the 440 basket out to match the same distance as the 411 basket and then using a 440 engine case and clutch pin.
The reason I have gone down the 650 clutch route is because of the 6 speed drive shaft which required a 440 slipper clutch basket anyway, after that its an easy option to fit a 650 clutch assembly, which is both slip and assist.
If I wasn't going 6 speed I would have stuck with the standard clutch with HMC stronger springs, which works good on both my 477 and 500 himalayans.
FWIW when comparing the gears, it looks like its possible to add the additional gears to the 5 speed shafts, which would save on having to change clutch or case, I need to try this out on the shafts before I button everything back together because I do have a 477 sitting quietly in the wings with a clutch with HMC stronger springs and not too many miles on it, plus I will now have a spare, same spec but even less miles on it.
This guy has helped me a lot for sourcing parts for the 6 speed, we both came unstuck with the primary drive sprocket ( which drives the 440 clutch basket) being marginally different than the old 411 sprocket ( fractionally different tooth shape, meaning they didn't mesh correctly), he got hold of two (very hard to find part) and one is on its way to me. He has beat me to the; 6 speed, 500cc H411 with a slipper clutch title but fair play to him, he told me all the part #s and we communicated as things progressed, great guy.
Below is his link to his build over the last few years, worth a read from the start. He lists all the parts needed for a 6 speed with a slipper clutch ( something he wanted to provide to everyone interested because a Dehli custom workshop told him it was their secret and wouldn't tell him!)
but fair play to him, he told me all the part #s and we communicated as things progressed, great guy.Below is his link to his build over the last few years, worth a read from the start. He lists all the parts needed for a 6 speed with a slipper clutch ( something he wanted to provide to everyone interested because a Dehli custom workshop told him it was their secret and wouldn't tell him!)
Woodstock
Well travelled
- Location
- Woodstock, NY
The guy is a magician. Love the pics. Thanks for posting the link. And so are you.This guy has helped me a lot for sourcing parts for the 6 speed, we both came unstuck with the primary drive sprocket ( which drives the 440 clutch basket) being marginally different than the old 411 sprocket ( fractionally different tooth shape, meaning they didn't mesh correctly), he got hold of two (very hard to find part) and one is on its way to me. He has beat me to the; 6 speed, 500cc H411 with a slipper clutch title
Below is his link to his build over the last few years, worth a read from the start. He lists all the parts needed for a 6 speed with a slipper clutch ( something he wanted to provide to everyone interested because a Dehli custom workshop told him it was their secret and wouldn't tell him!)
- Location
- WNC, USA
Hey, I skimmed but didn't see if you bought a Zedling setup for Thing2?
boardhauler
Very well traveled
- Location
- subtropical wetlands to ancient mtns
