You could have that today - the rear rim can be converted tubeless apparently as it has the safety hump while the front doesn’t- I see plenty of people having the sealant based convo done on both rims and they altogether have covered impressive mileage
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Possible big problems with tubless rims on 450
- Thread starter Luka
- Start date
Really?
vectinterceptor
Well travelled
- Location
- Isle of Wight
Looking at the photos the rims seem to be bent possibly from impact damage. The spokes are in tension and the bike hangs from them but they look like some sort of impact damage.
Roy Gavin
Well travelled
- Location
- Adelaide Australia
Yes, really!
vectinterceptor
Well travelled
- Location
- Isle of Wight
As for the facebook person having his nutes freshed could be a problem , the bike is not fit for purpose and he should demand his money back and threaten the dealer with the small claims court .
YorkshireBantam
Total noob
- Location
- Yorkshire
nothing wrong with my tubeless wheels, have covered plenty of miles now no problems.
Never mind the 10's of thousands of bikes that have 10's of thousands of miles without any issue at all...
Roy Gavin
Well travelled
- Location
- Adelaide Australia
We are talking about certain brands/ types of spoked tubeless some of which have a basic design fault, not every tubeless bike rim.
And yes, new they seal, but after a few hard dirt road runs or a bit longer general use some don't!
And we have no way of knowing how many guys have fitted tubes after the first time they had them deflate, it is not something some like to experiment with!
And how many guys never had the chance too!
Bluestrom13
Well travelled
- Location
- ...GB...
Like many other aspects of modern design, these rims are probably great while they work, but not so clever when they don't.
The new Himalayan's wheels are described as "cross-spoked", as are the BMW's.
They certainly look similar design / construction....(To me).
So this paper is a long read (15 pages), but very interesting to anyone who may wish to keep his new Tubeless Himmi long term.
The BMW cross-spoking leads to headaches at refurb time. Corrosion in the nipple mounts can be difficult to overcome if or when it happens.
Wheel rebuilds may be expensive, repairs (truing for instance), very difficult.
The title says it all...
Full article - GS Wheel Truing v10.pdf
The new Himalayan's wheels are described as "cross-spoked", as are the BMW's.
They certainly look similar design / construction....(To me).
So this paper is a long read (15 pages), but very interesting to anyone who may wish to keep his new Tubeless Himmi long term.
The BMW cross-spoking leads to headaches at refurb time. Corrosion in the nipple mounts can be difficult to overcome if or when it happens.
Wheel rebuilds may be expensive, repairs (truing for instance), very difficult.
The title says it all...
Full article - GS Wheel Truing v10.pdf
Roy Gavin
Well travelled
- Location
- Adelaide Australia
Nice article, but he is talking about Oilhead rims, but if they are the same as Airhead rims then just a few comments.
And on page 15 he admits it is a rewrite of someone else's article, he has obviously never done one himself!
Firstly everyone else who has attempted to repair them finds the spokes are seized solid in the hubs and rims, so a bolt cutter and mash hammer need to be added to the list of tools, to cut and bash them out.
He does not understand the underlying problem, which is that the spokes are a tight fit in both the hubs and rims and are not free to pivot as they must if normal truing procedure is to be followed.
So they have to bend at the point where they exit the hub and rim.
But as the torque gets past around 2 ft/lbs the bending force starts to push the rim the opposite direction from the one you are trying to pull it to, and mayhem breaks out!
My solution was to have reamers cut to bell the spoke holes and allow the spokes to pivot like a old fashioned wheel, and then they are no more difficult to true than old style wheels.
Not expensive if the machine shop has the proper equipment and you are a regular customer who knows exactly what you want!
The guy in the US who rebuilds them recommends over size spokes, so he is re cutting the holes too!
And he will have a HD alignment jig , which will get him within tolerance without further truing.
And on page 15 he admits it is a rewrite of someone else's article, he has obviously never done one himself!
Firstly everyone else who has attempted to repair them finds the spokes are seized solid in the hubs and rims, so a bolt cutter and mash hammer need to be added to the list of tools, to cut and bash them out.
He does not understand the underlying problem, which is that the spokes are a tight fit in both the hubs and rims and are not free to pivot as they must if normal truing procedure is to be followed.
So they have to bend at the point where they exit the hub and rim.
But as the torque gets past around 2 ft/lbs the bending force starts to push the rim the opposite direction from the one you are trying to pull it to, and mayhem breaks out!
My solution was to have reamers cut to bell the spoke holes and allow the spokes to pivot like a old fashioned wheel, and then they are no more difficult to true than old style wheels.
Not expensive if the machine shop has the proper equipment and you are a regular customer who knows exactly what you want!
The guy in the US who rebuilds them recommends over size spokes, so he is re cutting the holes too!
And he will have a HD alignment jig , which will get him within tolerance without further truing.
That (badly written and painful to read) article is dated 2004 and contains errors (eg on page 5 they refer to runout and quote 1/2 inch when they mean 0.05”).
If there was a fundamental problem with cross spoked wheels then it seems strange that BMW and others are still using the design, and have done so for over 30 years.
Maybe the design has been tweaked as Roy suggests above to make it more user friendly? I don’t know.
Any wheel can get damaged, some will be repairable, some not. Perhaps it is wrong to assume that all spoked wheels can be easily trued? We don’t expect cast wheels to be easily repairable.
I have had cast wheels give slow leaks after new tyres have been fitted - simply due to the tubeless tyre not seating perfectly on the rim. (Tyre removal and 5 minutes with wet and dry around the rim solved that particular problem). ‘Slow leaks’ are possible on any design of wheel due to corrosion or dirt under the edge of the tyre.
Ironically, one of my concerns with my Himmy 411 was having steel wheels as in damp salty UK conditions steel wheels can and will rust on the inside and outside.
If there was a fundamental problem with cross spoked wheels then it seems strange that BMW and others are still using the design, and have done so for over 30 years.
Maybe the design has been tweaked as Roy suggests above to make it more user friendly? I don’t know.
Any wheel can get damaged, some will be repairable, some not. Perhaps it is wrong to assume that all spoked wheels can be easily trued? We don’t expect cast wheels to be easily repairable.
I have had cast wheels give slow leaks after new tyres have been fitted - simply due to the tubeless tyre not seating perfectly on the rim. (Tyre removal and 5 minutes with wet and dry around the rim solved that particular problem). ‘Slow leaks’ are possible on any design of wheel due to corrosion or dirt under the edge of the tyre.
Ironically, one of my concerns with my Himmy 411 was having steel wheels as in damp salty UK conditions steel wheels can and will rust on the inside and outside.
Yeah, I've got to think that if there was a fundamental problem with the design ADVRider would be aflame with all the BMW guys bitching about it.
Roy Gavin
Well travelled
- Location
- Adelaide Australia
Oilhead owners hate admitting they have overpaid for a heap of shit - they will defend them to their last breath even if they are on their fourth gearbox and third final drive in 14 months! DAHIK
The BMW workshop manual at one time said that no repair was possible to these wheels, and few shops will touch them.
But a tube is cheap, easy and unobtrusive, so most just fit one and keep quiet- better result than bellyaching!
Today's better tires help too, current tubeless are mostly built on a heavy, thick , stiff carcass which can be up to 5 lbs heavier than lightweight tube types, and may grip the rim a little tighter.
Not usually a problem finding them, the top tires in the Chaparral comparison were the real heavyweights anyway, and the thick carcass is slightly more likely to hold a plug if needed - 6 mm is considered the minimum by some tire manufacturers.
Alloy is just as likely to corrode as steel to rust, you guys in the UK will have your favorite corrosion protectorant/ penetrate and application to both ends of the spokes might wise if long term ownership is contemplated.
But things change, RE for one seem to respond to critism and fix things pretty quickly, as Andy has said they may even have noted the problems others have had and tried to modify the design slightly to avoid them!
The BMW workshop manual at one time said that no repair was possible to these wheels, and few shops will touch them.
But a tube is cheap, easy and unobtrusive, so most just fit one and keep quiet- better result than bellyaching!
Today's better tires help too, current tubeless are mostly built on a heavy, thick , stiff carcass which can be up to 5 lbs heavier than lightweight tube types, and may grip the rim a little tighter.
Not usually a problem finding them, the top tires in the Chaparral comparison were the real heavyweights anyway, and the thick carcass is slightly more likely to hold a plug if needed - 6 mm is considered the minimum by some tire manufacturers.
Alloy is just as likely to corrode as steel to rust, you guys in the UK will have your favorite corrosion protectorant/ penetrate and application to both ends of the spokes might wise if long term ownership is contemplated.
But things change, RE for one seem to respond to critism and fix things pretty quickly, as Andy has said they may even have noted the problems others have had and tried to modify the design slightly to avoid them!
Whysub
Well travelled
- Location
- Elx, Spain
Everything made 30 years ago is better than whats msde today IME
Kiwi Gravel Roadie Rick
Getting there...
- Location
- Nelson, New Zealand
In my past life as a cyclist, there was a period where black anodised spokes were breaking prematurely on wheels. The fault was determined to be the anodizing making the spokes brittle. So I imagine this could be the case for the rims mentioned above.
seems you are right - the tubeless wheels sold here are not repairable , even if one spoke gives way. the are being offered with a 3 yr manufacturing defect warranty only and you will need to swap out several other parts to make them fit. Lets wait for real world reviews.
fatal
Well travelled
- Location
- Lancashire UK
I've had two Moto Guzzi Stelvios (2009/2011 models) and a Guzzi V85tt fitted with similar style wheels, no issues to report. I also had a 1990 BMW R100GS again fitted with similar style and in ten years no problems, the bike was 29 years old when I sold it, the previous owner, my bother in law had no issues either.
I and my wife in our younger days toured on a Thunderbird RE 350 with tubed wheels all across the countryside and didn’t have any issues. The poster who I alluded to seems to have a rough time with these wheels and the data emerging seems to support the non repairable and finicky nature of these wheels.
It’s only by listening to all (including the outliers) that a true image of the problem emerges imho.
Rest who wouldn’t want to get rid of the tubes ? Heck give me alloys while at it - I am not one for the off roads.
It’s only by listening to all (including the outliers) that a true image of the problem emerges imho.
Rest who wouldn’t want to get rid of the tubes ? Heck give me alloys while at it - I am not one for the off roads.