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Why does my 411 pop out of first when i let off the throttle?

D

Dono

Getting there...
Location
Washington State USA
2019 himi with around 4000 miles. Ive adjusted clutch free play, and the shift lever position. No effect. It shifts into first with a positive feel and sound, and stays engaged as long as there is throttle pressure, but slips into neutral when it starts to decelerate. Doesnt affect any other gears... Doesnt do it when on the center stand. Out of ideas, Im ready to pull the clutch cover, but i honestly wont know what im looking at. Would appreciate any suggestions before I go all cave man on this thing.
 
From your description I doubt it is anything to do with the clutch.
Either too much side to side play on a gear shaft, or the dogs on 1st have lost their undercut, or possibly a selector issue, or bent fork which isn’t engaging 1st enough.
Really needs looking at by someone with a decent understanding and experience of motorcycle gearboxes. (No disrespect intended)
 
If your clutch is adjusted correctly, then unfortunately the problem will probably be in the gearbox. A bent selector may cause it to jump out of gear, or wear on the dogs or end play as suggested. This shouldn’t happen until after a big mileage. Unfortunately the gear cluster will need to be removed to have a look and check all the gear change components.
I had a similar problem with an old BSA which was finally sorted by fitting a new cog in the box, but on stripping the old one out, I couldn’t see any problem so the wear must have been very slight.
 
Wow, great responses and information! You all have raised questions that got me thinking.
#1- this bike has been used on some rough washington bdr terrain while carrying me(250lbs) and roughly 80-90lbs camping gear. As a result, i have completely hammered the mono shock. Even with all my gear removed, it can barely use the side stand without tipping over. That has to be playing havoc with the chain tension while riding... I have ordered a new yss shock, but i wanted to solve the transmission problem before installing, but now I am thinking I should install the shock before messing with the transmission.
#2- because I have big feet in stiff adventure boots, I am very ham-footed with my shifting down into first when off-road. I don't pivot on my shift peg, but rather stomp on the shift lever (clutch engaged) when I need to get into first quickly. Rough treatment that I could imagine bending a shift fork. I have ordered some pivot pegs to try to improve my shifting practices as I can barely get my foot under the shift lever. I have raised the shift lever so that it is slightly above the peg height, but I messed around with that adjustment and it didn't seem to make any difference with the transmission issue.
#3- finally, the chain tension issue. My manual says to set it at 25 to 30 mm while on the center stand. Which I have done regularly. But I can imagine with all my weight and gear, that might not be giving me the best results. Especially if my shock is going out. I will go ahead and install the new shock before digging into the transmission. I might pull the cover and take a few pictures and share them in case there is something obvious that I don't recognize.
Thank you all for the awesome responses and suggestions.
 

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Ham fisted shifting (your words) will definitely bend a shift fork. So it won't move the gear cog fully into position. It engages just enough that when it has tension on it (engine power) it works, but as soon as you drop the throttle the tension is lost and it slips back into neutral.

Very common problem in a brand of cars I used to work on when people treated a foreign sports car like a Camaro with a Muncie 4 speed. Sold a lot of shift forks.
 
Good to know. I am an inexperienced rider, and have no finesse at all in shifting. I don't think I have ever successfully shifted while standing on the pegs. I will probably pull that fork and take it to my local dealer to see if they can see anything wrong with it or compare it up with a good one. I will look for any abnormal wear patterns on the first gear cog while I have it open. I'm going to have to work on my skills. I'm definitely not experienced enough for the off-road challenges I get into, and don't seek out that kind of riding, but I seem to get into more than my share of baby heads and rock ledges because of the nuts I hang out with. Trying to get my thumper back in condition for spring dirt camp...
 
I had issues with my boot size and the shift lever. I removed the rubber bit, laced a piece of leather over it in stead. After adjusting it a few times, it still was not perfect. My last and best mod was to bend the lever so that the shift peg angles forward a bit. It gives me more room to get the toe of my boot under it and makes a huge difference. I used 2 adjustable wrenches, one tight on the flat stock of the shift lever (wrench pointing to the ground), the second one tight on the first wrench for leverage to bend it.
 
Dono said:
Wow, great responses and information! You all have raised questions that got me thinking.
#1- this bike has been used on some rough washington bdr terrain while carrying me(250lbs) and roughly 80-90lbs camping gear. As a result, i have completely hammered the mono shock. Even with all my gear removed, it can barely use the side stand without tipping over. That has to be playing havoc with the chain tension while riding... I have ordered a new yss shock, but i wanted to solve the transmission problem before installing, but now I am thinking I should install the shock before messing with the transmission.
Click to expand...
2019 owner here. If you have the stock original side stand, then the proclivity to fall over to the right side is a built in feature. I dropped mine a couple times to the right and almost did many more times before fixing it with a modified side stand. I took to the habit of lifting the rear suspension every time I parked it until replacing that stand, it was really annoying.

I wish I had a simple answer for first gear popping out during deceleration, good luck.
 
Thank you for all the recommendations. I actually considered adapting my adventure boots with a shift lip on the inside toe. I think I would rather modify my boots then have to modify every shift lever on each of my bikes. Or maybe install a heel toe shifter, at least on my classic 350 and my other 411 that is set up for on-road trips.
I never noticed the sidestand issue on my 2019 411 until I started loading it with camping gear. The new yss shock I am getting has a lift option that I plan on taking advantage of. At 6 ft 2, I am already using the seat concepts high seat, but wouldn't mind a little more height. That should bring the lean back onto the side stand. And the yss is supposedly much stronger than the OEM, so my gear shouldn't sag so much.
 
Dono said:
Good to know. I am an inexperienced rider, and have no finesse at all in shifting. I don't think I have ever successfully shifted while standing on the pegs. I will probably pull that fork and take it to my local dealer to see if they can see anything wrong with it or compare it up with a good one. I will look for any abnormal wear patterns on the first gear cog while I have it open. I'm going to have to work on my skills. I'm definitely not experienced enough for the off-road challenges I get into, and don't seek out that kind of riding, but I seem to get into more than my share of baby heads and rock ledges because of the nuts I hang out with. Trying to get my thumper back in condition for spring dirt camp...
Click to expand...
Problem is work on the box involves getting the motor out and major strip down
 
Dono said:
Thank you for all the recommendations. I actually considered adapting my adventure boots with a shift lip on the inside toe. I think I would rather modify my boots then have to modify every shift lever on each of my bikes. Or maybe install a heel toe shifter, at least on my classic 350 and my other 411 that is set up for on-road trips.
I never noticed the sidestand issue on my 2019 411 until I started loading it with camping gear. The new yss shock I am getting has a lift option that I plan on taking advantage of. At 6 ft 2, I am already using the seat concepts high seat, but wouldn't mind a little more height. That should bring the lean back onto the side stand. And the yss is supposedly much stronger than the OEM, so my gear shouldn't sag so much.
Click to expand...
I put a set of Hitchcocks short drop links on my 411 Himalayan. These raised the at-rest position of the seat by a bit less than an inch, which made the bike sit nicer on the side stand (not as straight up and down). I used these with the stock shock because the bike squatted a bit too much (even with maxed-out preload) with my 220 pounds plus camping gear on the seat. You might consider adding a set of these if the YSS shock's lift option isn't enough.
 
Thank you for the recommendation, I was actually considering that before I realized that the shock had pretty much quit doing anything. I'm familiar with the drop links. I put the lowering set on my wife's bike. I'm running standard right now but the seat concepts high seat has been enough to ease the angle of my knees. Other than the practical matter of the kickstand angle, height of the ground is not as much of a concern to me. If I can maintain a standard height with all my camping gear on the bike, I'm happy.
 
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