Lithium batteries..Opinions/practical experience..??

[Roy Gavin]

The link has little relevance to motorcycle batteries.
Most manufacturers of motor vehicular batteries will have a website, and a quick check will detail their current technology.
And few seem to fit neatly into the ION - LIP divide- technology seems to have made that link irrelevant for M/Cs
Anti Gravity? site has details and comparative weights for their Lithium whatever products, but in Oz they are an expensive way to save a few KG.
SSB 's Oz site has quite a different take to AG , most other makers probably the same.

 

[fog rider]

This thread got me thinking, "I'd better get my facts straight before I present my Basic Electrical Theory class to the students in a few weeks".


From the Shorai Battery website:

"Shorai lithium iron motorcycle batteries are a type of rechargeable battery, and are technically lithium-ion batteries. So, they are very similar to lithium-ion, except they use a different cathode material, which they are named for. Typical lithium-ion batteries used in consumer electronics use lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) cathodes, while Shorai batteries use lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4, also called LFP).

The short answer is a lithium-ion battery has higher performance, but lithium-iron batteries are less sensitive to temperature extremes. This increase protection against heat makes lithium iron preferable in applications like motorcycles."


And yet, this article on Bikebandit's website seems to add more confusion to the mix:

"It’s important to know that, unlike lithium-ION batteries found in small devices (which as you’ll remember from the recent Samsung Note 7 fiasco as being prone to catching fire or exploding) the lithium batteries found in vehicles are lithium-IRON batteries – technically, lithium-ferrous-phosphate, or LiFePO4 – which is a completely different chemistry that is much more stable and safe to use." (italics are mine)

It looks to me like lithium ion batteries are small and lightweight, whereas lithium iron batteries are the same size as the stock batteries. I might be wrong on that, as I haven't viewed every manufacturer's website. There are always exceptions to the rule.

Some articles just use the word "lithium" to refer to all lithium battery types. Fair enough.

Our industry is so full of contradictory terminology. "Absorbed glass mat, valve regulated lead acid, and maintenance free" are often used to describe the same sealed lead acid type battery. Never mind that some sealed batteries are gel types.

I think I may have had too much coffee this morning. I'll stop ranting now...

 

[caferider48]

No mention of ion or anything else in my post, just Lithium, and there are more than two types of Lithium batteries.
And I made no mention because I suspected that if I did someone would come along and tell me it was wrong!
But how many types are sold for use in motorcycles is another question .
Or fitted as OEM by bike manufacturers.
I never pay too much attention to unverified links.
There is usually more than one answer to the same question, so if I need to know something important a decent search , including Wiki , is called for.
And I totally disregard Utube.

I watched one explode and burn a car to the ground with my own eyes, so I am cautious even though I also don't believe everything on the internet. But you cannot dispute their is a reason for the differences in chemistry

 

[caferider48]

Another issue is matching the battery to the RR unit correctly. I've purchased RR units from Rick's Motorsports and they are the best you can buy. they know what they are talking about. This amazon link describes the "why" of having the correct match.

Amazon.com: Rick's Motorsport Electrics Lithium Ion Battery Compatible Regulator Rectifier 14-117 for 1978-1981 HondaCX500 models with OE# 31600-460-731 & 31600-426-000 : Automotive

Buy Rick's Motorsport Electrics Lithium Ion Battery Compatible Regulator Rectifier 14-117 for 1978-1981 HondaCX500 models with OE# 31600-460-731 & 31600-426-000: License Plate Covers & Frames - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

[fog rider]

Cool. The set point of the Rick's RR is only 14 volts. That's very low. It must be very gentle on a Lithium battery. Perhaps Lithium batteries are stressed by factory RRs?

Several years ago I built a device based on a schematic I found in an old service manual for testing the voltage at which the zener diode triggered the SCR gates in a simple zener diode controlled type RR. I used a modern variable DC voltage supply unit as my power source, rather than two 12V batteries in series coupled with a variable resistor.

We discovered that most RRs were designed to stop charging the battery at around 15.5 VDC. The theory was that you needed to push approximately 15.5 VDC into a conventional old-school vented lead-acid battery in order for it to reach a charge of around 12.7 volts.



"Keep the rubber side down."

 

[Roy Gavin]

Years ago I had a basic battery charger, only thing it had was a high/low charging rate, and at either position it would fully charge a battery.
Eventually, and then it would go on and overcharge it!
The difference between the high and low rate?
One was six volts, the other twelve!
So always puzzled when folks talk about precise voltages required to charge a particular battery.
FWIW if you check the output of the small plug in chargers supplied with just about everything these days few are anywhere near the quoted figure but all seem to work OK, If the red/green light can be believed any way.!

 

[caferider48]

Years ago I had a basic battery charger, only thing it had was a high/low charging rate, and at either position it would fully charge a battery.
Eventually, and then it would go on and overcharge it!
The difference between the high and low rate?
One was six volts, the other twelve!
So always puzzled when folks talk about precise voltages required to charge a particular battery.
FWIW if you check the output of the small plug in chargers supplied with just about everything these days few are anywhere near the quoted figure but all seem to work OK, If the red/green light can be believed any way.!

First rule of thumb, never believe red/green lights.
Second rule of thumb, I think everything is OK but s__t happens
What's the use of having a regulator/rectifier if voltages don't matter anyway?

 

[Roy Gavin]

I didnt say voltage did not matter, just that the precision some talk about might not reflect reality , eg 14.1 v for same 14.2 for others.
Most generators generate AC well in excess of 12/14 v so conversion to DC and regulation to around what the battery needs is required.
They would also keep charging until the battery was damaged, so some form of circuitry is required to prevent that too.
But I did say I was puzzled, my knowledge of electricery is minimal , perhaps someone with specialized knowledge can enlighten me/us.

 

[caferider48]

Cool. The set point of the Rick's RR is only 14 volts. That's very low. It must be very gentle on a Lithium battery. Perhaps Lithium batteries are stressed by factory RRs?

Several years ago I built a device based on a schematic I found in an old service manual for testing the voltage at which the zener diode triggered the SCR gates in a simple zener diode controlled type RR. I used a modern variable DC voltage supply unit as my power source, rather than two 12V batteries in series coupled with a variable resistor.

We discovered that most RRs were designed to stop charging the battery at around 15.5 VDC. The theory was that you needed to push approximately 15.5 VDC into a conventional old-school vented lead-acid battery in order for it to reach a charge of around 12.7 volts.

View attachment 3484

"Keep the rubber side down."

some motorcycle RR info from a Japanese manufacturer

Regulators/Rectifiers | Motorcycle Products | SHINDENGEN ELECTRIC MFG.CO.,LTD

Introductions to Shindengen Regulators/Rectifiers information.

www.shindengen.com

 

[Roy Gavin]

Nice site, but looks like they don't do retail, or even list out what they make.
Shame, as wreckers usually have a few, dead cheap as no one knows what they fit!
But as most have three wires from the alternator and two to the battery capacity is what natters most, and I have had no problems just fitting one just a bit larger in size and sometimes with heavier wires.
And always with the connectors downline, not on the body, as these tend to heat up, dry out and fail, which is usually the reason you are changing them in the first place!

 

[caferider48]

Nice site, but looks like they don't do retail, or even list out what they make.
Shame, as wreckers usually have a few, dead cheap as no one knows what they fit!
But as most have three wires from the alternator and two to the battery capacity is what natters most, and I have had no problems just fitting one just a bit larger in size and sometimes with heavier wires.
And always with the connectors downline, not on the body, as these tend to heat up, dry out and fail, which is usually the reason you are changing them in the first place!

The reason why I posted the link is they are the largest manufacturer/supplier of RR units for the entire motorcycle industry. They supply to nearly all the major bike brands, So the descriptions of the technology they provide are state of the art today.

 

[Roy Gavin]

Yep, never seen anything else but them on a Jap bike.
But these things have been around for 60 years, so they are hardly state of the art, except perhaps the last one.
Flash, a Indian manufacturer of R/Rs is currently suing RE because they claim that the R /R on the Himma contravenes a patent which they obtained in the USA for their R/R in 2018!
So there are others around with different/later technology, and there are Shindengen units with six and seven wires one of which is an activator, so there is a bit more to it than shown on that site.
I have fitted them to Airheads in place of BMWs obsolete diode board and separate regulator, but only for cost/ availability, my nearest wrecker will usually let me have the pick of his box for $20-, around 5% of the of OEM BMW bits.
Although he did want $50- when I pulled one of a Hyabusa with 16 km on the clock which was still on the trailer!
Still 5 wire, no sensor FWIW!

 

[caferider48]

As with most technology: Low Cost, Reliability, High Performance, pick any two.